Talk: Machine gun (vehicle weapon)

Article scope

@Technobliterator: This article isn't about the concept of machine guns in general, rather, only as they appear in the series, something with which this edit strikes me as inconsistent.

As the article says, They are characterized and uniquely identified by their default availability [on vehicles], unlimited ammunition, rapid rate of fire, and relative inferiority to acquired weapons.

Note the text in square brackets isn't in the article but the writing meant to imply as such and was removed during the revision stage, but we can add it if need be.

That said, I do agree that we shouldn't redefine the term "machine gun" as only applying to automatic weapons used on vehicles, therefore I would suggest changing it to Machine guns are commonly featured as the default vehicle weapons in the Jak and Daxter series. Is that any better? —Jak Himself (talk·contributions) 03:14, December 10, 2015 (UTC)

Moved to machine gun (vehicle weapon) with machine gun as a disambig. —Jak Himself (talk·contributions) 23:24, December 10, 2015 (UTC)

Article title

@Jo: Your assertion that the article title "Machine gun (vehicle weapon)" clarifies that the article doesn't include all machine gun vehicle weapons is silly. There are several vehicle weapons that are machine guns, but that aren't included within the scope of the article. This should be clarified.

The only thing the new article title clarifies is that non-vehicle machine guns aren't included in the article. Incidentally, next time maybe you should follow the BRD procedure. —Jak Himself (talk·contributions) 03:06, December 11, 2015 (UTC)

We shouldn't need to clarify what the article's about anymore, so the sentence is now redundant. If Vulcan Cannon and Vulcan Fury are both types of machine guns, they belong in sections on the page. If they don't belong there, because they aren't named "machine gun", and the page only refers to weapons named that (no weapon was named just that, though?), then a "see also" will do fine.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 12:01, December 11, 2015 (UTC)

And why don't we need clarify? Why is it redundant? Why does the article title magically clarify the scope of the article? Because it seems to me like you're still confused given the rest of your reply... I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'll explain again anyway. The scope of the article is clearly defined by this sentence:

They are characterized and uniquely identified by their default availability, unlimited ammunition, rapid rate of fire, and relative inferiority to acquired weapons.

So yes, while the Vulcan Fury racing weapon and the Vulcan Cannon are types of machine gun vehicle weapons, they do not match the above criteria and are, therefore, not included in the scope of the article. Furthermore, the article isn't only about weapons called machine guns. It's about the default machine gun that has unlimited ammo that is notably weaker than acquired upgrades (said acquired upgrades would include Vulcan Fury and Vulcan Cannon).

In Jak 3 this weapon is unnamed, in Jak X this weapon is called the submachine gun, and in The Lost Frontier it's called either the machine gun or the Punisher depending on where you look.

If we did not have this article, we would have a separate "Punisher" page, a separate "Submachine gun" page, and no page to cover the Jak 3 weapon as it's not independently notable nor is it actually named. Given the fact that all three of them have the same things in common (the aforementioned criteria), it makes sense to me that they would be merged into one page, this page.

Now, that said, we still need to mention the fact that the acquired machine gun weapons are not included and why, in case it wasn't obvious to someone reading the criteria (such as what has happened before with both you and Tim). And yet even still, adding the paragraph does not harm the article in any way. You just fail to understand the whole point of the article. —Jak Himself (talk·contributions) 15:13, December 11, 2015 (UTC)