OK, so this is a huge debate, and I decided that instead of edit wars, we could debate whether or not Jak is The Great Mar or not here.
Some things to remember:
- As convinced as you are, no official confirmation has been made, so niether side is proven correct
- We are debating theories. Attack the ideas, not the people
Evidence for Jak being the Mar:
1. Seem & Ashelin Imply it
2. They would not make such a big deal out of Mar being Jak's name if he was not
3. Jak has experience time travelling
4. If Jak can stop the metal heads now, he could do it again
5. The armor fits him perfectly
Evidence Against Jak being the Mar:
1. Many people, especially royalty, name their children after ancestors. If Mar was such a good hero, Jak would probably not even be Mar the Second
2. The Statues look nothing like Jak
3. Jak does not have the leadership or technology skills to build and rule a city
4. Jak would not destroy the peaceful village in order to build a city
5. If Jak really was the Mar, they would have stated it more clearly than simply a nod
1. Well Ashelin implies it, Seem only knows at Jak being Mar (but not THE Mar). 2. True. 3. Does not provide evidence towards Jak being Mar. 4. True, but being able proves nothing. I don't really think Jak is smart enough to build the Shield Wall, and so forth. 5. True.
1. No where does it say he is Mar the Second. 2. True. 3. True. 4. I don't think he destroyed it, there are ancestors after all who might have done it. Also, there were Metal heads around. Defense over nice little village? 5. True.
Other things; Jak enters the Space Shuttle at the end of Jak 3 but appears back on land mysteriously, without his armor.
This comes from the Jak 3 Game Script from GameFAQs, it is pretty much entirely correct.
1st Ottsel (LD: Precursor Leader...): We need heroes like you to help us protect the universe, Jak.
Jak: Then you can call me by my first name... by what my father called me, Mar.
Possibilities against this; P Leader did not want Jak to know or just called him by his name as Jak was always called. But still, this kinda is a big point. Not? -- Light Daxter - User - Talk 00:04, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
Jak may be named after Mar that doesn't mean he isn't Mar. Jak could have given orders about the statues so as not to be recognised in the future. Jak would make a good war leader, and the tech could come from Tym, Keria or Vin. The village may have been destroyed already or as Samos' hut is inteact the village mearly defended and expanded. The fit of the armor is a biggie. btw, rewartch the scene commentary I think the guys confirm it there, not certain. Jakraziel - Talk - Admin 02:04, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
My replies to Light Jak's stuff:
1. True, as Seem nods when Ashelin says Mar, before she defines him as being The Mar 3. It means that Time travel is something Jak knows of, so he could travel back in time 4. True
1. Damas named him after Mar, so he is at least the second. 4. True
And about Jak having Kiera, Tym, or Vin to help him, Jak would not take all of the credit for others hard work, would he? And of those three, Tym is the most likely, as Vin is in a computer that has not yet been invented and Kiera would never change the village. --LurkerLordB 03:55, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
So we can basically say Jak is not the Mar, however there is nothing that really says he is 100% so it stays open until ND come out with something new. -- Light Daxter - User - Talk 21:19, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
Jak goes with the precursorsEdit
Jak goes off with the precursors and then reappears with no armor exept the shoulder armor so this is evidence for jak being mar.Wastelander 27 09:17, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
What Ashelin says about THE mar really sways me because the way she says it and Seem nods.Also Damas often talks about mar in the jak 3 game which suggests jak might be mar.Veger refers to damas as the great warrior too.june 30th 2011 [utc]the mysterious warrior
Asheline says "Wait, Jak is Mar?" [Seem nods] "The Mar?"
Seem nods before Ashelin can 100% confirm she is referring to the legendary Mar, not just the son of Damas, so that is not absolute. They probably left it cryptic on purpose. LurkerLordB 03:11, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
Damas might of named his son mar because he believed he would be able to fufil duties that mar failed such as using his gun and defeating metal kor. Because jak is part of the house of mar that would make his surname mar as well.--Wastelander 27 14:18, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
Mar could of been a myth from the start and damas thought his son could be as great as the hero described in the myth, this is only a minor possibility.--Wastelander 27 14:18, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
Hello guys, I also wanted to share my thoughts, though a year has passed since the last time people were discussing about this.*NOTE, THAT I HAVEN'T PLAYED J&D:TPL* Today, I finished Jak 3 (again) and saw some stuff that really impressed me, like pieces from a puzzle. Two days ago, I had finished Jak II. In the end of Jak II, Samos said that Mar might be closer than Jak thinks. Now IF Jak is THE Mar, how would Samos come to find such a thing? And why wouldn't he tell?
In Jak 3, at the end, Ottsel Dummy said that Jak would have more adventures in the past. He might seem "dumb" or silly, but still, he IS a Precursor, and he might still be hinting something.
Also, in Jak 3 again, when Jak went for the last time at Haven Forest, after he did what he did when he linked to the Dark Maker ship through the Astro Viewer, he was very surprised, as he saw something very stunning and impossible. To be so stunned by seeing that the Ottsels would offer him to come with them? No. That he would save them from Errol? No again. Or that the great Precursos were Ottsels? Again, no. SO, he saw something from the past, Maybe Mar himself. Or maybe, him in the past, that HE was THE Mar (While the "Our Hero!" could be the people thanking Jak as Mar for protecting/saving them in the beginnings of Haven city, although it is later heard at the end of the gamem when the door for the Precursor ship opens. Still, that could be the Precursors from the ship, if there were any others besides the three shown, or even just the people gathered at the arena).
Also, in Jak II, the first time you visit Onin's tent, Pecker says "Onin says it's good to see you again Jak". So Onin, had seen him before. In the past. The thing with Onin and Samos is, that they know about Jak & Mar, but they are not telling anyone. Or at least, Jak, as far as we know. Why they choose to do so, Is really a mystery. Also, Samos seemed to know about the Metalhead invasion, as he stated in the beggining of Jak II: "So, this is how it happened" But why didn't he reveal abything about it? Maybe he remembered near the time Jak defeated Gol & Maia? Maybe he forgot some stuff during time travelling as Yound Samos? Well, at the end of Jak II, Old Samos said "It's funny, the boy won't remember anyhting" while Jak replied with "No, I remember the light!". That hints that memory loss might be a thing caused by time travelling, (though Old Samos, Keira, Jak & Daxter didn't experience such a thing when they travelled to the future) but also that it's not complete wipeout. (Note that Jak was very young when he timetravelled with Young Samos, and the whole experience must have had much a bigger effect on him). Also, it might have be meant for these things to be caused, for things to not be done in different ways so the future won't change. Who would determine such things is unknown. Maybe it is caused only be travelling to the past, but this is kind of dumb.
And how would Jak be THE Mar? By time traveling to the past of course. Although, to when would he travel, I mean, to what point in the past, it is uncertain. It must be after the Metalheads had invaded Sandover Village and it's surroundings, but before the creation of Haven City. So, a large amount of time would have passed from the invasion until the creation of the city. Again though, the rift gate was destroyed. But, who tells us that it was the last one? Or that there can be no other means for time travelling? Do not forget, that the Precursors might have helped him, the ones who built the technologies themselves.
So, Jak would have to go again to the past to fulfil his destiny as THE Mar perhaps? Jak was not really shown that alienated with technology, but also not that fond either. Also, he is shown to have no interest on leading people, but that could change. He stated in Jak 3 that "they(the people) are worth fighting for". Again, fighting for them, not leading them, but still. He could even get fond with technology, before even going into the past. Also, he could have found people in the past to help him with technological feats, though it was stated in numerous occasions that Mar built himself some things, which again could just be facts that were added through time to make Mar seem more glorious.
One more thing is, that if Jak were to go to the past to become The Mar that built haven city, the Mar that helped with the battle of Metalheads and Dark Makers and aided the Precursors, would make him his own ancestor, leaving much confusion. And who would be his spouse? Unless he travelled along with Keira, who could also help him build all that he did build. Again though, what would hapen at the future? What would happen after Jak (presumably Daxter and quite possibly Keira) went to the past? Many things could happen for anything to fit it. Like for example, Jak cloned himself (I know, weird, but could happen) and maybe Keira, and the two stayed in the past and the other two along with Daxter went back to the future (their present). Anyhow, that's it from me.--Bandis (talk) 10:09, April 28, 2013 (UTC)